<div dir="ltr">Thanks all now I understand better.<div><br></div><div>to <a class="gmail_plusreply" id="plusReplyChip-1" href="mailto:miconda@gmail.com" tabindex="-1">@Daniel-Constantin Mierla</a> regarding to the compiled lua code, I agree either it's an optimized binary or a dynamic .so. it doesn't have to be GPL. But as discussed above, if you load the compiled lua code into kamailio, it has to be GPL since it links to the C code anyway directly, it calls kamailio functions directly (e.g. t_relay()) but not via a socket, so that might applies to GPL unless that explicitly clarified. even the kamailio config scripts also has this problem, since kamailio config is not like *pure* config files e.g. .ini or .yaml, it has it's own logic, it calls functions in C, it's just another "language" like lua or js. The only difference is that the native config or lua code is not compiled at the same time of kamailio, it would be interpreted at run time by kamailio. but GPL doesn't care about compile time, it just cares if your code "calls" GPL functions.</div><div><br></div><div>So if kamailio is not intended to restrict config or scripts via KEMI to force GPL it might be good to explicitly clarify it?</div><div><br></div><div>Also thanks @Johansson, as the discussion is long I list my understanding or my question #5 here. According to the answer that means when I write a module to load into kamailio, I cannot link to libclosed.so as I cannot provide source code since it's by a 3-rd party I cannot own the code and it's not GPL. So the only way to use that libclosed.so with kamailio is to create a service and communicate with kamailio via socket, evapi or http or anything else.<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 11:34 PM Daniel-Constantin Mierla <<a href="mailto:miconda@gmail.com">miconda@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I think it is not easy to impose any further restriction not to
distribute the sources, but one can try ... in some (many)
countries licenses and patents are not recognized or not enforced.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br>
Daniel<br>
</p>
<div>On 10.02.22 11:47, Alex Balashov wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Come to think of it, I imagine the license has language saying
that it cannot be superseded in part or in whole by any
contradictory agreement.<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">—
<div>Sent from mobile, with due apologies for brevity and
errors.</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 10, 2022, at 5:42 AM, Alex
Balashov <a href="mailto:abalashov@evaristesys.com" target="_blank"><abalashov@evaristesys.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
Is it legally possible for a customer to separately contract
away a right that the license otherwise affords them, such as
the GPL right to demand source code and then turn around and
distribute that source code?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have to wonder if it’s possible in the US. It seems
like it shouldn’t be, but in principle, in the prevailing
theme of Anglo-American jurisprudence, it’s possible to
contract away pretty much anything, no matter how adverse to
one’s interests, so long as it is done “freely”.<br>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">—
<div>Sent from mobile, with due apologies for brevity
and errors.</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 10, 2022, at 2:37 AM,
Henning Westerholt <a href="mailto:hw@gilawa.com" target="_blank"><hw@gilawa.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">just
to add to the discussion:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-GB">Please have a look to the GPLv2
FAQ, many topics you’ve raised are discussed
there
<a href="https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html" target="_blank">https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html</a><u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-GB">You should really consult a
lawyer for this specific questions<u></u><u></u></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Regarding
the licence of the configuration (native script
vs. KEMI) – my understanding would be that a
native Kamailio cfg script would be independent
of GPL as its interpreted (and practically the
customer gets the “source code” anyway). But
KEMI LUA code that is pre-compiled would fall
under the GPL, so the customer has a right to
get the source code for it. Compare e.g., to
this:
<a href="https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL" target="_blank">
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Henning<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">-- <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Henning Westerholt –
</span><span><a href="https://skalatan.de/blog/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" lang="EN-GB">https://skalatan.de/blog/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Kamailio services –
</span><span><a href="https://gilawa.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" lang="EN-GB">https://gilawa.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><b>From:</b>
sr-users
<a href="mailto:sr-users-bounces@lists.kamailio.org" target="_blank"><sr-users-bounces@lists.kamailio.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Olle E. Johansson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 10, 2022 8:13
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kamailio (SER) - Users Mailing List
<a href="mailto:sr-users@lists.kamailio.org" target="_blank"><sr-users@lists.kamailio.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [SR-Users] SEMS license
with kamailio and rtpengine<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hi
Seven!<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Note
that many of these questions open a legal
discussion that has been going on for many
years. I base my answers on what I know, which
may not be the full truth. Regardless, I have
been involved in these kind of discussions for
almost 30 years of working in open source.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">First,
note that there are two kind of situations to
observe. One is when your application is
executing in a system. The other is the license
of the written source code files. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Secondly,
license and copyright are two different things.
You always have the copyright to your source
code.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">In
Kamailio there are source code files that have a
different license than the rest of the files.
That means that if you copy that source code and
create a new product that license applies.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Kamailio
as a whole is released under GPL version 2. When
you run Kamailio in your server, that license
applies to it all, regardless of the license of
various source code files.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Also
note that I base this discussion on a delivery
of a system to a customer. When you run Kamailio
as a service you do not deliver (according to
GPL v2) and the customer doesn’t have the same
rights to the source.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Also
note that (as other persons has pointed out)
that it’s the recipient of the binaries that has
the rights, not the world. If I am not your
customer, I can’t demand the source code
according to the GPL. The customer that receives
the code has the right to do whatever they want
with it - like publishing the source on GitHub
for the world to enjoy.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">10 feb. 2022
kl. 00:16 skrev Seven Du <<a href="mailto:dujinfang@gmail.com" target="_blank">dujinfang@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I have some
questions on this, e.g. on Kamailio:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">1. The core
and some modules is GPL. I packaged
that without change, and sell to a
customer. and when the customer
asks for source, I told him to
download from the kamailio website,
since I didn't change anything. Is
that correct?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">How
you distribute the source code to the customer
is irrelevant here. Note that if you end up
having to provide it on a floppy disk or a USB
stick, you can charge for that according to
the GPL :-)<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">2. I can
also host the source on my own
website, with some more helper scripts
for building and packaging. That
should be better?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I
can’t judge if it’s better or worse, it has
very little relevance to with the license.
Just make sure that you include the signatures
made by the Kamailio team so the customer can
trace it back to the source and make sure
there’s no changes.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">3. I write
a new module, 100% code wrote from
scratch, just follow the module
guidelines or example code to
expose/add hooks to core, dynamically
loaded into kamailio. Do I need to use
GPL or can it be any license or even
closed source? can I sell the
standalone module in binary?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Your
source code has to be licensed in a license
that can end up being compatible with GPL. You
can not have a commercial license on it, since
when executing it as part of Kamailio, GPL
applies.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Since
your module ends up being GPL while running in
a system you deliver for a fee or for free to
your customer, your customers has a right to
the source code.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">4. my
module still should be GPL since I
have to call GPL code in kamailio
source, e.g. string functions in core.
or maybe it's ok if string functions
in kamailio core is BSD?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">When
executing ALL of Kamailio is GPL, including
all linked modules.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">5. If my
module link to a 3rd party lib (e.g.
libclosed-source.so or
libclosed-source.a I think there's no
difference?) which is not open source
(but free to sell), can I sell it w/o
the source of libclosed-source ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Linking
means that you execute in the same processes
and according to most this means that GPL
applies. That’s why we have a lot of protocols
where most people think that GPL does not
apply, even though some people want to discuss
that. In my personal view it’s ok to write
commercial software that communicates over RPC
or by using the http_client with Kamailio.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">In
Asterisk, the license specially permits this
use of the various Asterisk protocols since
there was discussions. Most Asterisk
developers believed it wasn’t necessary and
that GPL did not apply when using protocol
based API’s. But nevertheless, just to avoid
discussions, this was clarified in the
license.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">6. If
answer to 5 is yes, I can write my own
libclosed-source and sell with
whatever license?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">You
can, but if it links to Kamailio in run-time,
then it will at that point become GPL licensed
regardless of what you have written. That’s
why many companies stay away from GPL,
especially libraries that are licensed with
GPL, because it can affect your own licenses.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">7. Regards
to KEMI, if I write routing scripts
with Lua (compiled with luac) and sell
to a customer, should I open source
the Lua code? The Lua code calls
Kamailio core functions which might be
GPL.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">That
is an interesting question which I’m not ready
to answer. I think the intention of the
Kamailio dev team is that your code should not
be affected by GPL, but we may want to clarify
that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">If
you write a regular configuration script I
would personally clearly think you have the
rights to that. The idea with KEMI was to
introduce modern ways of writing configuration
scripts.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Thanks. I
don't mean to violate the GPL, just
want to be clear and easier to
understand the license.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Always
good to start the day with a GPL discussion
:-)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">/O<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Wed,
Feb 9, 2022 at 9:05 PM Henning
Westerholt <<a href="mailto:hw@gilawa.com" target="_blank">hw@gilawa.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt">Hello,<br>
<br>
(just to add the obvious disclaimer
that this is not legal advice, I am
not a lawyer).<br>
<br>
> [Would it be ok] if it were
[using] a standalone service to
which Kamailio interfaced using very
narrowly confined and
general-purpose communication
channels?<br>
<br>
I do not think there is a problem
regarding to the GPL in this case.
Interfacing over SIP/HTTP/RPC/XMLRPC
or other standard mechanism to a
dedicated process would not
establish a close coupling between
Kamailio and the other code.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I think
it's correct. e.g. if you use evapi
or http to talk to your service you
don't have to open source your
service code.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Cheers,<br>
<br>
Henning<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Henning Westerholt – <a href="https://skalatan.de/blog/" target="_blank">https://skalatan.de/blog/</a><br>
Kamailio services – <a href="https://gilawa.com/" target="_blank">https://gilawa.com</a><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: sr-users <<a href="mailto:sr-users-bounces@lists.kamailio.org" target="_blank">sr-users-bounces@lists.kamailio.org</a>>
On Behalf Of Alex Balashov<br>
Sent: Wednesday, February 9, 2022
1:50 PM<br>
To: Kamailio (SER) - Users Mailing
List <<a href="mailto:sr-users@lists.kamailio.org" target="_blank">sr-users@lists.kamailio.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [SR-Users] SEMS license
with kamailio and rtpengine<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Feb 9, 2022, at 7:46 AM,
Henning Westerholt <<a href="mailto:hw@gilawa.com" target="_blank">hw@gilawa.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> If modules are designed to
run linked together in a shared
address space, that almost surely
means combining them into one
program.”<br>
> <br>
> This is exactly what applies to
Kamailio due to the core and module
architecture. The core and modules
also share common data structures
and memory segments.<br>
<br>
I see. So, practically, the only way
a custom module could be considered
meaningfully separate according to
these criteria is if it were a
standalone service to which Kamailio
interfaced using very narrowly
confined and general-purpose
communication channels?<br>
<br>
— Alex<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Alex Balashov | Principal | Evariste
Systems LLC<br>
<br>
Tel: +1-706-510-6800 /
+1-800-250-5920 (toll-free)<br>
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<pre cols="72">--
Daniel-Constantin Mierla -- <a href="http://www.asipto.com" target="_blank">www.asipto.com</a>
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Kamailio Advanced Training - Online
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">About: <a href="http://about.me/dujinfang" target="_blank">http://about.me/dujinfang</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://www.dujinfang.com" target="_blank">http://www.dujinfang.com</a><br>Other: <a href="http://rts.cn" target="_blank">http://rts.cn</a><div><div><br></div></div></div></div>